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lyamc
Senior Member
- Jun 2020
- 470
#61
Originally posted by tobiasView Post
What are the signs of a CoC that is "insincere"?
My CoC says that bad things are bad, but the bad things aren't as bad as the really bad things that aren't actually bad.
My CoC says that all bad things are bad, which includes things that are definitely bad and not definitely bad.They all end up reading like that.
I don't see why anyone should be protected from being criticized or even insulted over immutable characteristics. If I can't swim because I have no legs, that makes me a terrible lifeguard and I shouldn't have been hired as one, no matter how "ableist" that might be.
Originally posted by marlock
Do you think protests are an overreaction?
Yes. Do you know who black people are most at risk from? Other black people, because rampant fatherlessness. It's really no wonder why 50% of violent crime is committed by black people in the USA. Simply observing that, and attempting to identify the issue is dismissed as racist, so the problem continues and things get worse.
The USA is currently systemically racist against white and asian people with affirmative action and programs that directly benefit people based on race, meaning other races are discriminated against.
But now I'm really off-topic. Oh, and George Floyd was a bad person who died as a result of his own bad decisions.
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Old Grouch
Senior Member
- Apr 2020
- 547
#62
Originally posted by oleidView Post
Yes, like I said before. The oldest CoC I am aware of are are the Christinan 10 commandments and the Hippocratic Oath.
Then there was the Pirate code a few hundreds years ago and most certainly Bushidō.Cough.
The 10 commandments are Jewish. Mosaic law. Old Testament, not New.
Best known early written code is the Code of Hammurabi, but others pre-date this - here's a list.Comment
AmericanLocomotive
Senior Member
- Aug 2017
- 206
#63
Originally posted by ultimAView Post
Nowadays many people expect you to have a CoC, otherwise you'll be stigmatized by them as a generally bad (most probably racist) person. I shouldn't have to put up a CoC in my repo for people to assume that I'm a welcoming and nice dev.
A Code of Conduct is just the same thing as a set of rules. Any proper medium of discussion (be it an actual forum, a mailing list, an in-person meeting) will have rules for discourse. ANY place where public discourse can occur without firm, established rules will quickly devolve into degeneracy with insults and personal attacks. Case in point, the Phoronix forums: No moderation, no rules, nearly every thread devolves into a flame-fest with personal attacks and insults being hurled back and forth. Nearly every single thread in this forum gets ruined because of it.
Not a single reasonable person is going to think the owner or creator of a project themselvesis racist or mean because the project does not have a CoC. However, not having a CoC tells any potential contributor that the creator/owner/maintainer of a project does not care if comments from other contributors are toxic, hateful or disrespectful.
It's like being a parent and wanting to take your kid to a trampoline park. One park has a list of rules you must follow or you get kicked out, the other park has no posted rules at all. I'm not going to assume the owner of the "no rules" park is a violent monster. However, I will correctly assume that the odds of my child getting hurt from others being overly aggressive at the "no rules" park are much higher.
That's all a CoC is. It's a set of rules that says "We will not tolerate contributors to this project being mean to each other". That's it. Nothing more. The only people that have problems with CoCs are people that are chronically nasty to other people.
The maintainers of many projects are realizing that the a huge chunk of the open-source community is downright toxic and hostile to people. It's driving away new contributors, and causing issues for projects. A CoC lets people know they will not tolerate poor behavior in their projects.
Last edited by AmericanLocomotive; 05 August 2024, 07:55 PM.
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marlock
Senior Member
- Nov 2018
- 391
#64
The maintainers of many projects are realizing that a vocal chunk of the open-source community is downright toxic
there, i fixed it for you... we know these nice gents are vocal, but "huge" is "citation needed"
plus, as mentioned earlier in this thread, these nice gents and their toxicity used to scare a bunch of non-toxic contributors away, so even code contribution statistics might lie about how prevalent toxicity is or can be in foss dev community
what we definitely know is they were too many and drove too many non-toxic devs away... and i'll risk saying one more thing: in many cases, the toxicity was disguised as a needed recourse to drive away incompetents, but in fact many such claims were themselves a disguise for reasons that had nothing to do with competence
the few bullies that actually meant to drive away incompetence were unwittingly harmful because they drove away non-incompetents too and, more importantly, because they helped legitimate bullies that bullied for bullying's sake, powerplays, etc
fortunately this is largely a thing of the past, and the remaining dicks stand out of the crowd like sore thumbs (so many puns...
)Last edited by marlock; 05 August 2024, 08:25 PM.
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ultimA
Senior Member
- Jul 2011
- 253
#65
Originally posted by marlockView Post
I find it baffling how hard it still is, in 2024, to accept statements like:
I find it alwful that this sort of statement is, in 2024, so easily labeled an "-ism", as if it was a disease, a cult or some other irrational and dangerous fad, not a very necessary and belated reaction to one of the most grotesque expressions of human mass-destruction by other humans.
By the way "the racial unrest in the US of ~2020-2022" was due to a series of occurences under this general tone:
Here is a nice little list of unrests WITH WHY (because surprise, surprise, they have whies!?!):
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_incidents_and_protests_of_the_United_State s_racial_unrest_(2020%E2%80%93present)By your own stated law of action-reaction, what exactly did you expect to happen after so many savage murders (including a prominent number perpetraded by law officials) and the woeful underreaction (in itself a severe understatement) of law enforcement institutions in the US?
Do you doubt these murders happened? Do you thing they were "justified"? Do you think protests are an overreaction? Do you think explicit refusal to help harbor people who engage in the hate speech that fuels such crimes is an overreaction either? Or maybe, just maybe, there might be some black folk in some FOSS projects too, or hell, IDK... empathetic non-black folk too, thinking maybe let's not give these racist sh*tes a free platform... instead maybe this time let's let THEM have a hard time if they keep insisting in going public with their deadly ideas?!
Because that's what's behind the timeframe you mentioned. Yet you still seem to be under the impression that CoCs are (all or most or a lot of them) lip service. And heck, i'm sure *some* are... still beats having the racists gloat about being racist out in the open where they can coopt many more people into harming black folk for the next couple generations, than if they are forced to scurry to the back alley shadows and publicly save face.
I could name many things that are wrong with your post. I could name that you are insinuating that I ever took a problem with the quote you started with. Or that you try to discredit my persona by insinuating I have racist views, for the sole reason of believing that many CoCs in the past years have not been sincere. Or that you try to conflate the wrongness of George Floyd's murder with the questioning of CoCs being useful or not, sneakily trying to establish a non-existent moral link that in your mind means if I don't believe in CoCs than I must be racist. Or I could point out that you don't seem to realize that we've been talking about wokeness this whole time, and you're talking about racism (related but different things).
But the most fundamental mistake you're making, and is the reason I hate woke propaganda, is your line of thought that this should have anything to do with the existence of CoCs in software projects. Unfortunately it did/does, which is what I'm complaining about, but it is due to people like you. It is tragic what happened to George Floyd. It is tragic if anybody, be them a part of a group or not, is unjustly mistreated/killed/harmed. The protests in the wake of the murder were justified, and I condemn racism just like you do. But WTF has that got do with software projects? What gives you the right, or the justification to even insinuate that I or any other project owner who doesn't put out a CoC is racist, or abides by racism? It doesn't even make sense: Whatever is in a CoC should be right and upheld without an event like the aforementioned murder. Yet you and all your woke lot couldn't give a sh*t about CoCs until that year. But when somebody is murdered, then you develop a moral compass? I mean, how hypocrite can you be!? And you even think that racism among cops towards black people can be helped (let alone be solved) by some GitHub projects putting "Please be nice" documents into their code? And if somebody doesn't think that will be useful, you reach for public defamation! On each and every one of these points you are out of your mind. The pinnacle of modern wokeness.
Woke/wokeness used to be a movement against social prejudice and injustice, no matter of what kind (sexual, racial, LGBTQ, etc). I am all for that and what that original meaning used to symbolize. But the meaning has long changed and has become a pejorative term due to people like you. What people mean by "woke" today are people who seek to do as little as possible, opting for useless and for-the-show actions that are easy to execute yet have zero effect, while at the same time trying to defame any- and everybody who doesn't join the cult; all under the disguise of equality.
Last edited by ultimA; 05 August 2024, 08:44 PM.
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ultimA
Senior Member
- Jul 2011
- 253
#66
Originally posted by tobiasView Post
What are the signs of a CoC that is "insincere"?
You cannot tell by looking at them. It is simply a statistical probability based on how CoCs started to proliferate in exactly the same timeframe as woke culture did. That, coupled with the fact that many open source communities (and corporations as well) literally issued their CoCs as a reaction to woke or racist events (some to show compassion, some for marketing, some to avoid a burn, some to scramble for funds at woke companies etc.)
Originally posted by tobiasView Post
Why do you assume people did not chose those CoCs because they think they are useful?
Because the CoCs have been around for a long time, they were nothing new. Also most of the projects have been around for a long time, long before the 2020's. Yet before the 2020's somehow none of them thought (well, a few did) it would be a good idea to publish a CoC? Then around 2020,,, A world-wide instantaneous group-enlightenment. Yeah, sure they must have all sincerely changed their minds.
Yes, I have an alternative explanation. They issued CoCs because they were afraid of people like marlock. who is ready to insinuate they are racist (which is public defamation) simply for not wanting to publish a CoC. Unknowingly, marlock in this thread has provided the perfect example for why projects and corporations are afraid of not declaring themsleves as "woke" using a CoC. marlock has single-handedly proven that this phenomenon of having to be afraid of this, is very real.
Originally posted by tobiasView Post
You seem to agree that the communities around rust projects are different to other programming language communities. Where does that difference come from when CoCs have no effect?
I never once mentioned Rust or referred to it during the discussion. You're confusing me with some other poster here.
Last edited by ultimA; 05 August 2024, 08:42 PM.
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ultimA
Senior Member
- Jul 2011
- 253
#67
Originally posted by marlockView Post
there, i fixed it for you... we know these nice gents are vocal, but "huge" is "citation needed"
plus, as mentioned earlier in this thread, these nice gents and their toxicity used to scare a bunch of non-toxic contributors away, so even code contribution statistics might lie about how prevalent toxicity is or can be in foss dev community
what we definitely know is they were too many and drove too many non-toxic devs away... and i'll risk saying one more thing: in many cases, the toxicity was disguised as a needed recourse to drive away incompetents, but in fact many such claims were themselves a disguise for reasons that had nothing to do with competence
the few bullies that actually meant to drive away incompetence were unwittingly harmful because they drove away non-incompetents too and, more importantly, because they helped legitimate bullies that bullied for bullying's sake, powerplays, etc
fortunately this is largely a thing of the past, and the remaining dicks stand out of the crowd like sore thumbs (so many puns...
)I'm sure you're not just making these things up. Like, you can show statistics overarching multiple projects that shows that the introduction of a CoC directly correlates with an increase in project productivity? Because otherwise, you say CoCs are helpful, and I say they are not.
I am "so sure" if a d*ck of a person sees there is a CoC uploaded, they will magically turn into a nice person or leave the project. Because CoCs are known to have magical properties that their sole existence drives toxic people away, right? Or maybe a CoC's existence empowered the nice ones: before the "Be nice message" doc they didn't dare to send a toxic one away, they needed the CoC to collect their courage to know they can do that.
Or, much more logically... I don't think your story can be generalized. I am sure something like that has happened somewhere, maybe in a few places. I am also sure those are very-very rare occasions.
Last edited by ultimA; 05 August 2024, 09:22 PM.
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marlock
Senior Member
- Nov 2018
- 391
#68
Originally posted by ultimAView Post
What people mean by "woke" today are people who seek to do as little as possible, opting for useless and for-the-show actions that are easy to execute yet have zero effect, while at the same time trying to defame any- and everybody who doesn't join the cult; all under the disguise of equality.
I'll skip most of your post and just get to the meat of it.
You claim CoCs are innefective for-the-show. I've *seen* one, revised smack in the middle of your "suspicious" timeframe, be effective in my workplace.
Publishing/revising a CoC alone doesn't move mountains, but sometimes it does get things started, or helps people who care get just enough of the leverage that they need to enact tangible change.
And as for not having a CoC before that timeframe...
1) better late than never
2) maybe people were pushing for it before, but only then got enough attention from others to have it published, and finally getting it out is a symptom of deeper changes for the better
3) maybe more people thought like you, that software is just software, but felt compeled by the circ*mstances to do *anything* they could, and to hell with the "let's not even try if it won't surely work" attitude
4) maybe the CoCs were NOT the only thing done at that timeframe by those same peopleI actually respect your (now) more tempered/nuanced view on the matter, but imho you still seem to start from assuming a ton of stuff about the context and history of those documents and the projects and communities they are attached to... or have done a damn poor job at fleshing out the specifics that frame your view... which in effect is feeding the trolls (case in point this thread, and that's what i'm speaking of, not simply you... look around to who else is speaking agains CoCs here, and what they're arguing/claiming/etc... notice a trend?)
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AmericanLocomotive
Senior Member
- Aug 2017
- 206
#69
Originally posted by ultimAView Post
Because the CoCs have been around for a long time, they were nothing new. Also most of the projects have been around for a long time, long before the 2020's. Yet before the 2020's somehow none of them thought (well, a few did) it would be a good idea to publish a CoC? Then around 2020,,, A world-wide instantaneous group-enlightenment. Yeah, sure they must have all sincerely changed their minds.
Many open-source communities had Codes of Conducts forever, they just weren't called "Code of Conduct". For example, the ARM Linux Project from 2006 https://web.archive.org/web/20060504.../etiquette.php recommending people follow "Netiquette Guidelines" written by intel in 1995. https://www.ietf.org/rfc/rfc1855.txt
Many communities have simply realized that having an official Code of Conduct will make their communities healthier and more productive. "Oh, that's a good idea, we have users complaining about hostility from others. This will codify our rules of discourse and give us standing to enforce our vision for the community." Project maintainers have realized that if they want to retain contributors and attract new ones, they need to keep discussions inside their projects under control.
These Code of Conducts have become necessary because the Open Source community has gradually become more and more toxic and hostile as more people have joined it.
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F.Ultra
Senior Member
- Feb 2010
- 1887
#70
Originally posted by lyamcView Post
I don't see why anyone should be protected from being criticized or even insulted over immutable characteristics. If I can't swim because I have no legs, that makes me a terrible lifeguard and I shouldn't have been hired as one, no matter how "ableist" that might be.
There are zero reasons to criticize or insult the legless person when declaring that they are the wrong person for the job. That you don't see this is perhaps why you are having such a huge problem with CoCs. You also seem to be under the false presumption that a CoC would somehow force you to hire the legless person as a lifeguard, something that is also a huge misunderstanding (but one that we see being brought up time and time again whenever CoCs are discussed in that people seems to think that a CoC means that you are forced to include code coming from "some protected minority" which ofc is not the case).
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